silniki peugeota

[Mav309]

PANOWIE...CZAPKI Z GLOW...NASZE SILNIKI GTI SA NAPRAWDE SWIETNE, W ZASADZIE WIEKSZOSC TUNINU ZROBIONE W FABRYCE.
W zasadzie doszedlem do tego niedawno co koles powiedziaal - ustawic dobrze zaplon, nie cudowac z glowica, nie ruszac wydechu, nie kombinowac z dolotem - lepiej nie bedzie...

The 205 was Peugeot's attempt to really see off the other hot hatches such as the XR2/3 and Golf Gti. The power output is very high compared to other engines of the time and was a result of Peugeot paying a lot of attention to engine design detail. The legacy of this high output is that it is not as simple to improve the power as with other engines that are in a lower state of tune as standard. A great many modified engines that both I and colleagues in the trade see, have LESS power than standard and the companies selling engine conversions tend to boast the most ridiculously inflated power claims compared to companies specializing in other marques. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines

Let's compare the 1.9 Gti engine with the Golf 8 valve and see how Peugeot got so much power. The 1.9 has a claimed 130 PS (128 bhp) compared to the Golf's 112/115 PS (110/113 bhp) in 1.8 or 2.0 litre form. Firstly Peugeot made the bore larger at 83mm and this allowed them to fit larger valves - 41.6mm compared to the Golf GTi's 40mm items. This 8% increase in valve area is worth about 10 bhp. The head was given large ports and a decent shape and flows very well for a standard item. The induction system was carefully designed to flow well and flows enough to allow even well modified engines to breathe ok. Peugeot got the exhaust system bang on - it flows well, has good tuned lengths and an excellent manifold design - whatever you do, don't waste money on an aftermarket system - you won't get more power - you'll probably get a fair bit less. When it rusts away go and buy a genuine Peugeot item - not a pattern part. Finally Peugeot topped the engine off with a really good camshaft. Most 8 valve engines of this size have about 400 thou valve lift as standard and a fast road cam from Piper or Kent etc will add another perhaps 30 to 40 thou to that. The Pug 1.9 has 445 thou lift as standard and fairly long duration as well. It's already more than a match for an aftermarket fast road cam for most other engines. The good exhaust and big cam add the other 5 or so bhp that similar engines lack.

So in effect the Peugeot engine is already the equivalent of a fast road tuned Golf. Given that the exhaust and induction system are so good what can we do to improve the power further? Well the main area left to improve is the cylinder head but it takes really well developed port shapes to give more flow and that takes flowbench time. There is also some power available from even higher lift/longer duration cams but at the expense of some tractability. We'll look at both areas later. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines

BLOCKS AND CRANKS
Both the 1.6 and 1.9 share the same 83mm bore and the capacity comes from different crank strokes - 73mm and 88mm respectively. The wet liner engine is strong and reliable with a few idiosyncrasies to watch out for. The liners have no shims underneath and must protrude above the top of the block by the right amount to seal properly. This relies on accurate machining at the factory as the clearance is not adjustable. 4 to 5 thou is the figure to look for - too much lower than this and leaking head gaskets and/or water in the sump can result. Over time the liners tend to distort to a slightly oval shape because of the constant piston thrust in one direction. However, if you remove the liners and leave them on a shelf for a while they seem to go back round again - weird but true. A good tip when rebuilding an engine that is still in good enough condition to not warrant new liners is to refit them turned 180 degrees round in the block. Most of the wear takes place on the thrust side of the engine and rotating the liners lets the relatively unworn side seal against the rings better.

Beware when removing and refitting the cylinder head not to turn the crank until the head bolts are done back up or the pistons will move the liners. The liners just sit on machined recesses at the base of the block and are sealed with thin rubber O rings. Move them and they are unlikely to seal again without new O rings and the consequence will be water leaking from the block into the sump oil.

Peugeot did a huge amount of messing about over the years with the number and arrangement of plain and grooved main bearing shells, the reasons for which have always eluded me. The Haynes manual comments on the complexity of it all and states that when they stripped their own test engine it didn't even have one of the bearing combinations listed in the official Peugeot charts. Other engines nearly always have 5 grooved bearings in the block and 5 plain in the caps for very good reasons of oil supply to the crank. That's the way I build the Peugeots too, regardless of year, and they run perfectly happily like this of course. Peugeot actually finally settled on this combination anyway for later 8 valve engines and the 16 valve engine.

The rods are very sturdy and survive race use happily enough so road use is no problem for them even on tuned engines. Standard pistons rarely cause problems either except for sustained use over 7,500 rpm. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines

Early engines had an oil pump drive which relied only on the friction of the tightened crank pulley nut to turn it - no woodruff key or other locking system. This strikes me as one of the worst bits of engine design I have ever seen and the first time I rebuilt one of these engines I was convinced for ages that I'd lost a part somewhere. I know someone whose Mi16 engine grenaded because of not tightening that bolt up properly and after a few miles with no oil pressure everything came to a very expensive halt. You have been warned.

CYLINDER HEAD
Early 1.6s had smaller valves than late models but then went to the 41.6mm inlet and 34.5mm exhaust of the 1.9 engine. From then on there is no difference between the cylinder heads of late 1.6 and 1.9 engines and in fact they aren't even stamped with the engine size. The exhaust valve is perhaps a bit small but little extra power comes from fitting larger ones and the expense is not warranted except perhaps for big budget race engines. The inlet valve can be usefully increased in size though and 43.5mm will just clear the bores although 43mm is the normal big valve option I offer for road engines. As I said above, more 205s get badly modified by so called "expert" engine tuners than any other make of car. The cylinder head doesn't escape their attentions. I've seen a £400 "fully ported" head from one of the less reputable Peugeot "specialists" where the badly worn guides hadn't been replaced, the seats hadn't been recut, the valves hadn't been refaced and the porting consisted of a bit of polishing with a flapwheel in the areas that could be reached with the guides still in the head. Not surprisingly it didn't make any more power although 160 bhp was the claim. It must have taken nearly an hour to do that head ! A properly ported one takes several days of carefully detailed work.

Cam bearing wear can be a problem on high mileage engines especially if there has been any bottom end damage. Bits of crank bearing material tend to circulate with the oil and chew up the cam bearings and as these are machined directly into the head there is not much you can do to rectify it. Guides wear out pretty fast too - especially on the exhaust side and any decent head mods should include new guides if they are outside the wear limits. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines

There is not as much scope for improving flow compared with many other heads because Peugeot did such a good job as standard in the quest for that 128 bhp. Port shape is critical to getting better flow and it is the seats, valve throat and short side bend that need the most work. The main part of the port is plenty big enough as standard and needs no enlarging but as it is the easy part to reach, inept tuners take huge amounts of metal out here to make it look as though something constructive has been done. This drops the port airspeed and hurts low rpm power without increasing total airflow at all. 3 angle seats are a must and reshaping the valves in the seat area helps too. The guides have to come out to do the work properly and one sign of a badly modified head is lumps missing from the guides where they've been hit by the porting cutters.

With the optimum port and valve seat shapes it is possible to squeeze about 8% to 10% extra flow and power potential out of the standard valve sizes. So about 10 to 12 bhp on a std engine and proportionally more in conjunction with other tuning mods. Polishing and enlarging the straight part of the port without removing the guides or cutting the seats properly won't achieve anything at all except to make the head look superficially pretty. Sadly most heads fall into this category.

Given how well the std head flows it is big valve heads that make the most sense and achieve the best value for money per bhp gained. With larger seat inserts, 43mm inlet valves and the port shapes properly worked to get the most out of the bigger valves it is possible to get an extra 15% bhp. That's about 18 bhp on a std engine and 20 or more on a tuned one. On a race engine a properly ported BV head can easily be worth 30 bhp. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines

A light skim to increase the compression ratio can add a little more driveability but 10:1 is about as much as you need for road use with standard or mild road cams on pump fuel. Longer duration cams can stand more CR as with any other engine. 11:1 works well with cams around 290 degrees duration such as the PT27 (ignore the 304 degrees duration quoted in the Kent catalogue as they don't measure anything like long).

INDUCTION SYSTEMS
The standard induction is a plenum manifold with a single butterfly and Bosch LE fuel injection. The manifold has big runners and flows plenty of air to work nicely with even well modified big valve heads. The LE injection system measures the air flow by means of an air flap which opens progressively as more air flows into the engine. The ECU then hopefully injects the right amount of fuel based on what the air flap meter is telling it. This works fine except at low rpm with long duration cams. The reason is that the air flap likes the airflow to be steady and in one direction all the time. Big cams cause the airflow to pulse strongly at low rpm and this makes the flap vibrate which confuses the ECU and leads to erratic idling. At higher rpm once the engine has "come on the cam" everything smoothes out and works fine again. Even with the standard cam the engine isn't renowned for having the best idle characteristics in the world and if you want to retain a good idle then stick to short duration cams (under 275 degrees). If you aren't bothered too much about idle quality then hotter cams will work fine once the revs are up over 2000 or so. Fitting a mappable ECU controlled by a throttle position sensor and doing away with the air flap meter eliminates the idle problem but is costly. You might as well pay the extra and go straight to throttle bodies as mess with the standard induction system to that extent.

Fitting DCOE carbs is another way of eliminating the air flap problem and is worth a few more bhp. Maybe 5 to 10 depending on how highly tuned the engine is. They are also easier to calibrate than a fuel injection system but won't get anywhere near the same economy or tractability. Note that the Mangoletsi DCOE inlet manifold, which is the most commonly available one, needs an awful lot of work to match its ports up with those of the cylinder head. As cast it only has tiny holes through the runners which are very restrictive. It takes a good couple of hours with a grinder to remove the required aluminium and port the manifold properly so be prepared for the cost of this if you want the engine to produce the power it should be capable of. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines

The ultimate induction system is throttle bodies with mappable injection and ignition. This will add 15 or more bhp just from the extra airflow and also allow you to use longer duration cams without losing tractability. The total additional power potential is therefore pretty high. Cost is around £1400 plus fitting and setting up.

EXHAUST SYSTEMS
This can be a nice short section. The standard Peugeot systems are excellent and on a standard or road tuned engine you'll be wasting your money fitting anything else. Only on rally or race engines with long duration cams might it pay to fit a tubular 4-2-1 type manifold and larger bore system but that's outside the scope of this road oriented tuning guide. Also beware of non Peugeot standard replacement systems. You might save a few pounds but also lose a goodly chunk of bhp into the bargain.

CAMSHAFTS
Because the standard cam is a fairly rorty item anyway it pays not to go too mad in this area, especially if the standard air flap induction system is being retained and idle quality is important to you. The usual choices for a road car with the standard induction system are the Kent PT31/36 (same cam) or the Piper 270. Kent claim 14 bhp and Piper 20 bhp which I've said for a long time are fairly outrageous claims. In the previous edition of this article I estimated, based on feedback from rolling road tests, that those cams might be worth more like 5 bhp. However getting really accurate feedback from dyno tests where ONLY the cam is changed is nigh on impossible as most people do several tuning mods at the same time. Recently I took time out to do my own measurements of both those cam profiles which came up with pretty shocking results. The Kent PT36 actually has slightly LESS duration than the standard cam and the Piper 270 only has a degree or two more rather than the ten degrees you would expect from the quoted duration. Other than having a few thou more lift, both of those cam profiles graph out as more or less identical to the standard Peugeot cam. Close enough at least that in my opinion they can't materially affect the power curve.

My recommendation to anyone considering buying either the Kent PT31/36 or Piper 270 in the hope of getting a significant power increase over the standard Gti cam is simple - don't.

This is all pretty depressing stuff. You can form your own views on the ethics of companies that sell products that are so similar to the standard item and yet claim such huge power increases to get you to buy them. It has now given me cause to wonder just how effective the mild/fast road cam offerings for other engines are. Without doing detailed measurements or back to back dyno tests which are expensive and time consuming you have no real idea of whether the costly purchase you are considering is going to be a waste of money. I don't have the time or resources to measure every cam on the market but I'll be publishing on here everything I do measure.

The hotter cam offerings at least do have more duration than standard and so really will alter the power curve. However they aren't going to work happily with the standard air flap meter and so are best used with carbs or throttle bodies. I'll update this section with more information when I have time.

Finally, note that Peugeot changed the bolt that holds the cam pulley on from a 12mm diameter bolt on early engines to a 10mm bolt on later ones. As with the crank bearings, why on earth they messed around with something which was fine to start with I have no idea. Maybe the smaller bolt saved 0.1 of a penny per engine and they were going through hard times. All Kent and Piper cams use blanks with the original 12mm thread in them so if you have an engine with a 10mm bolt you'll need to go and buy the 12mm one from a Peugeot dealer to be able to fit the new cam.

POWER OUTPUTS
STANDARD ENGINES

I don't normally have to go into so much detail about the claimed standard power output in these tuning guides but the 205 Gti is a bit of a minefield in this area and it has knock on effects on how some of the less honest engine tuning companies arrive at their own power claims. To restate the rules I use for equating flywheel and wheel bhp on front wheel drive cars. The simple equation is to deduct 15% from the flywheel bhp and the longer version is deduct 10% plus a further 10 bhp. The chart below shows the wheel bhp figures we would expect to see using those two equations on the claimed standard flywheel power.

ENGINE CLAIMED FLYWHEEL BHP ESTIMATED WHEEL BHP
10% PLUS 10 BHP RULE
ESTIMATED WHEEL BHP
15% RULE

1.6 GTI 113 BHP (115 PS) 92 BHP 96 BHP
1.9 GTI 128 BHP (130 PS) 105 BHP 109 BHP


So do we see those power levels from standard cars on the rollers? In the case of the 1.6 most certainly. A few cars even make a tad more power. 98 bhp is about the highest I recall seeing. Only a really bad one will show less than 90. As for the 1.9 a few of them show that sort of power but it's a lot less common. About 108 bhp is the most I tend to see. So we could say that on average the engines are split by closer to 10 bhp than the 15 that the factory claim. A good 1.6 will have its claimed 113 at the flywheel but only an exceptional 1.9 will show 128. An average 1.9 will show anywhere between high 90s and just over 100 bhp at the wheels (so about 120 to 125 bhp flywheel) and really poor engines as little as 90 or 95. Highly tuned engines tend to go out of tune easily and show the effects of mileage and wear and tear more than run of the mill engines. Factor in 100,000 miles of wear, injectors starting to clog up, non standard exhaust and air filters and it isn't difficult to shed 15 or more bhp from an engine that probably never really had 128 when it was new. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines

[Globus205]

dłuzszego posta nie widziałem
można po polsku??

[krynio]

Aaaaaaaaa no właśnie tak po polskimu by sie zdało panie. Bo my tu jece nie w uni, i nie gawarimy po obcymu.

[Mav309]

w skrocie...

Wydech w gti jest tak dobrze dobrany ze w zasadzie nie da sie go poprawic, jedyne co to wymianiac na orginalne czesci i jezdzic...
Zaworow nie poprawiac bo sa jedne znajwiekszych w 8smiozaworowych silnikach tej pojemnosci..
Walkow nie zmieniac, bo sa praktycznie porownywalne ze sportowymi...

Ogolnie koles porownywal silnik puga z analogicznm 2.0 VW i stwierdzil ze vw po tuningu (walki wydech i dolot) to dopiero moze sie rownac z tym, co wyjechalo z fabryki peugeota (seria).
A koles ma za soba wielo letnie doswiadczenie w materii silnikow do wyczynu...
Byl mile zaskoczony silnikami gti puga

[Para]

hehe dobrze wiedzieć czym sie jeździ

[Mav309]

hehe dobrze wiedzieć czym sie jeździ

Wystarczy doprowadzic go o stanu fabrycznego i sie okaze ze straszny palnik jest...
na moje wiekszosc gti ma zjechane walki...
podobno od 605 2.0 pasuja jak ulal...sprawdzal ktos?

[Kaktus]

Walki zjechane jak nic!! Ja mam 2 walki, i oba sa kosmicznie zjechane!! Ale juz koncze prace nad glowica I zobaczymy jak bedzie chodzil. Okazalo sie takze ze mimo iz mam silnik z 89roku, to mialem male zawory, tak wiec wkladam teraz zawory z 1.9 GTI - czyli takie jakie byly w pozniejszych 1.6. Walek wkladam swiatka.

Oprocz moich 2 zjechanych walkow, zjechany walek mial takze Wiesiek Bak (2 miejscw w A6 w PPZM 2003), oraz inny moj kumpel w silniku 1.9 GTI - nie wiem dlaczego ale walki mocno sie zjezdzaja

Z ciekawostek powiem wam ze bloki XU tak sie sprawdzily ze w 206 WRC i 307 WRC wlasnie bloki XU stosuja!! A nie TU... ktory jest mlodszy.

Nasze autka maja seryjnie kute korbowody!!

Duza zaleta naszych silnikow z cala pewnoscia jest takze uklad dolot-wylot -> po przeciwnych stronach, czyli cross flow.

Pugi maja takze seryjnie bardzo duzy stopien sprezania!! 9.8:1 - to bardzo duzo jak na seryjne autko!

Z doswiadczenia wiem takze, ze czesto w starszych samochodach awari ulegaja:
1) Puszka podcisnienia (peka membrana) przy aparacie zaplonowym
2) Peka guma wlewu oleju (autko ssie lewe powietrze)
3) Pompa paliwa nie wydala... i daje za male cisnienie paliwa

Czesto takze wycieraja sie sciezki w przeplywomierzu powietrza.

Te rzeczy wplywaja na mniejsza moc naszych silniczkow... i na pewno warto jest je sprawdzic.

[Mav309]

kumpel mierzyl pompe w 1.9 daje ponad 5 bar... chociaz na listwie jest 2.9-3.1 bara...(troche malo) podejrzewam ze regulator by sprawe zalatwil...albo rozwiert szyny wtryskow...
Tak sobie licze fizycznie, ze utrzymane 3 bary w szynie o 40% wiekszej sprawi ze bedzie paliwko wydajniejsze...

A c do walkow...chlopaki z puma racing twierdza ze walki w pugim maja chcarakterystyke sportowych "road cams" moze dlatego sie tak zjezdzaja, sa pelniejsze i ostrzejsze, moze wieksze sily dzialaja?

Zaczelem sobie myslec ze zamiast a grupowych walkow poszukac orginalow nowek, albo dac zrobic do swiatka na wymiary fabryczne...

[Kaktus]

Eghmmm walki sa ostrzejsze ??! Ostrzejsze sa seryjne ... A grupowe walki sa niemal okragle - maja dluzsze czasy otwarcia

Wyczynowe walki rozrzadu posiadaja takze mniejszy wznios niz seryjne walki, a czesto nawet krzywki nizsze Bo w walku wlasnie najwazniejszy jest czas otwarcia zaworow.

Nie wiem jaki czas maja seryjne walki w innych samochodach i jaki czas maja walki w pugu Moze ktos zna?!

A jezeli pompa daje 5barow to znaczy ze jeste niemal jak nowka Pompa musi dawac wiecej niz trzeba A za utrzymanie porzadanego cisnienia (w tym przypadku 3bary) sluzy regulator cisnienia paliwa - ktory chetnie bym zamienil na jakis inny

[Piweł]

Może kilka słów wyjaśnienia, bo wydaje mi się że Mav delikatnie uprościłeś to co pisał ten gość z Puma Race Engines:
1) Wydech - rzeczywiście części od kolektora do końca specjalnie bym nie przerabiał bo dużo można tu popsuć (choć są i tutaj sprawdzone patenty - niestety nie na ulicę ). Jednak nie mogę się na pewno zgodzić z tym że kolektor seryjnego 8v jest dobrze zrobiony - wystarczy spojrzeć na długości kanałów 1. i 4. cylindra
2) Wałek - nie wiem czy rzeczywiście wałki Pipera i Kenta mają takie "cienkie" profile (albo seryjny wałek Peugeota taki dobry ), ale nawet jeśli to nie jest to jeszcze argument żeby nie zmieniać wałka w ogóle (po prostu trzeba wsadzić dobry).
3) Głowica - tam wcale nie jest napisane, żeby jej nie ruszać. Piszą tylko żeby nie szaleć z poszerzaniem kanałów i przesadnym planowaniem (chociaż wymieniony przez autora artykułu CR 9,8:1 to jakiś babol, seryjny 1,9 ma 9,6 a na Motronicu tylko 9,2, więc jest co poprawić), natomiast co do zaworów to jest sens wstawiania większych dolotowych, ale do 43 mm średnicy - później to już hard-core i brak miejsca się zaczyna. To rzeczywiście działa (wiem bo miałem takie zawory).
4) Dolot - najprostszy z możliwych patentów jest najlepszy - przeniesienie przepływki za przednie wzmocnienie + stożek za lampę - nie widziałem jeszcze 205-tki, która się po tym nie zbierała lepiej (przynajmniej na wyższych obrotach).

Poza tym gość cały czas używa określenia "road use". Myślę, że tu jest pies pogrzebany - jeśli ktoś traktuje GITa jako bardzo szybkiego hatcha do jazdy po mieście i w trasie to standardowe rozwiązania tego autka są rzeczywiście bardzo dobre. Jeśli jednak ktoś się ściga/jeździ w rajdach/na 400 m albo po prostu lubi cały czas wciskać do dechy, to na pewno jest przynajmniej parę rzeczy które można poprawić. A porównywanie 205-tki z Vw Golfem 3 GTI to w ogóle jakaś pomyłka

Pzdr
Piweł

PS. Wałek od 2,0 8v na pewno fizycznie spokojnie wejdzie do 1,9 8v (głowice są praktycznie takie same "z zewnątrz"). Nie wiem natomiast co z czasami otwarcia zaworów - tu mogą być jakieś różnice.

[Mav309]

Eghmmm walki sa ostrzejsze ??! Ostrzejsze sa seryjne ... A grupowe walki sa niemal okragle - maja dluzsze czasy otwarcia

Coz...pisalem "pelniejsze, ostre walki" pelniejsze to chodzilo o ich ksztalt, a ostre to raczej chodzilo o cel ich pracy (lagodne walki - ostre walki)
Inan sprawa mam taka teorie i dosyc chyba trafna ze im pelniejszy walek tym wieksze sily dzialaja na zawory poprzez szklanki itp...i w druga strone te sily sa wieksze i na walkach - dlatego sie to bardziej wyciera...

[Mav309]

"Może kilka słów wyjaśnienia, bo wydaje mi się że Mav delikatnie uprościłeś to co pisał ten gość z Puma Race Engines"


owszem ja to mowie na realia tego forum...
Malo kto z nas auto przygotowuje do wyczynu...malo kto w planach ma rurowy kolektor 4w1, a to co koles z puma racing powiedzial powinien dac do myslenia...
Malo to z nas wycina tlumiki wstawiajac kolejne bardziej przelotowe...?
Ja sam uleglem wrazeniu ze moj silnik jest dlawiony przez seryjne puszki...
Wycielem wszystko, postawilem to na 2.5 cala wydechu z dwoma przelotowkami... i co? Uzyskalem moze wieksza moc ale w waskim zakresie wysokich obrotow, a reszte po prostu spapralem tlamszac moc w zakresie srednich obrotow...
Przy najblizszej ingerencji w wydech mam zamiar sie przeprosic z seria...
bedzie ciszej i szybciej...

Co do patentu krotkiego dolotu...moze na 400 metrow to swietne rozwiazanie, gdzie wskazowka obrotomierza porusza sie od 5 do 7 tys obr...
Ale juz na rajd to nie wiem czy dobrze jest...czasem trzeba sie wygrzebac z nizszych obrotow i nie zawsze mozna sie podeprzec zmiana biegow...

[Kaktus]

No wlasnie, wyczynowe walki sa bardziej "pelne" i to one powinny szybciej sie zjezdzac... serja ma ksztalt dosc ostry! A zuzywaja sie pewnie przez twarde sprezyny itp... ale nie kazdy samochod 1,6 ma 115 KM

A co do dolotu, to uwazam ze najwazniejsza jest objetosc dolotu od przepustnicy do przeplywomierza! Tak wiec jezeli zrobisz taki dolot jak pisal Piwel, tyle tylko ze zachowasz seryjna objetosc to powinno byc ok! A rada na niskie obroty jest stosunkowo duze podcisnienie w dolocie, a to mozna uzyskac poprzez zmniejszenie nieco srednicy rury pomiedzy przeplywomierzem a przepustnica... w ten sposob mozna "ssac" zimne powietrze, a dolot bedzie sie zachowywal jak seria.

[Kaktus]

Racja jest to co mowi Mav ... ja wolal bym miec 120km i 190Nm niz 150KM i 140Nm ... no chyba ze jezdzil bym w wyscigach Wtedy to wolal bym druga opcje

I oczywiscie bardziej plaski moment!

Tym roznia sie silniki rajdowe od wyscigowych...

[Marin205]

może Kaktus by się wypowiedział o throttle bodies